I would like to know what types of BASE canopies pilots have bought to go with their harnesses?
What sizes in sq/ft fit the BASE container?
What experiences have pilots had when deploying?
Mikes "because that can happen and in the acro community we have a solution with a better version that can be home made by comparison to the standard release systems sold on the market." Looking for this solution, I was on point to install the charly Snap shackle system but it cam to me there is an issue with the line lance so googling I found your discussion.
@kusgra and @all pilots . Here is the speed system some pilots have applied. However, you must test it vigorously! If you make the pin line the wrong length, it will get caught. Also, when doing twisted manoeuvres, especially like twisted rhythmic, it really sux having them. I just personally fly with my speed lines zipped into the side pockets and can attach them in flight if needed. Not ideal but you never really use speed bar on small wings. For freestyle wings and pilots, try this system. *note, it is a thin bungie elastic tied into a loop and the releaser line that goes to the pin must be a sewn clean loop too, the speed system hook is the standard tri hole design* http://de.tinypic.com/r/1zd52yu/8
Jaro, I ve checked other 3rings systems. They also has ability to stuck if turn small ring 90 degrees. As I mentioned before I don't see how it can practically happen in air. Also I checked supair harness with normal carabiner they provide - tried to simulate situation like in PDF file below. Seem to be OK - couldn't simulate the same . However, one person told me that supair had cutaway issue, but no any facts, just gossip.
I fly with 2015 AVA in Organya now, but majority is on supair version.
Had one cutoff recently in deep spiral with twists. It was harder to pull cutoff handle ug forceder g. New AVA cutoff handle has loop like supair what is better in my opinion
Look at picture 4 from PDF and try to see ring (not normal carabiner). In my opinion it can stuck also when diameters of the rings are not right.
Yarich also said:
I played with AVA 2015 3ring system today. I pulled with twists, without, totally twisted Risers independently, tried to simulate g force with extra tension - zero malfunction. However, once I finished playing with it I simulated with hands turn of smallest ring on 90 degrees. 3 ring system will not work in this configuration. I tried to pull hard - completely stucked. I will post links next. I can't really say that this can practically happen during handle pull.
There is also some disinformation in the Ava manual and the Polish investigation team will by analysing this later.
So do i get this right: he didnt use the round carabiners recommended by AVA?
In my little world of mind it should be impossible for the 3 ring system to get stuck when a ring shaped carabiner is used, and the diameter difference between the rings is big enough. And it should be big enough when the rings can pass through even with twisted fabric inside the next bigger ring.
Or is this not correct?
Some conclusions in english :
- the cut away system has failed to work. The left side has deployed properly, the right side, connected to RSL, did not deploy;
- the failure of deployment seems to have been caused by the shape of the main carabiner, causing one of the rings to get locked in its position, failing to deploy;
- a number of carabiners from various manufacturers have been tested, with the failure of deployment being reproduced a number of times, which means that the fault cannot be linked to any single manufacturer;
- a number of acro base systems from other manufacturers have been tested and a similar behaviour (failure to deploy) has been witnessed, in a number of cases;
- the carabiner used by the pilot involved is shown on page 3 (middle picture, signed "Fot. 4");
- the locking of the mechanism occured with just the weight of the harness itself;
- the report contains a couple of pictures showing the position where the release mechanism has failed to work properly, due to the rings getting blocked by the main carabiner.
Hello Yarich, From what I can personally see and understand from the photos that you have posted ... http://vk.com/photo4624945_372656839 ... here clearly shows that the red webbing that is holding the (2nd) middle ring is too thick around the ring and as such it is clearly stopping the (3rd) small ring from passing through it, this is of a concern and as such the manufacturer of this system needs to rectify this problem asap, I also believe that the use of the (1st) large D-shackle and it's thickness could also contribute to the problem and as such the manufacturer clearly needs to re work and immediately replace this with the correct parts and manufacturing technique.
To the Manufacture of the 3 ring cutaway system, guys if you Google "sb-apf010801-c" you will find a PDF service bulletin that relates to the correct service and maintenance of the 3 ring release system, and it also shows the correct manufacturer of the above 3 ring release. there are a number of important aspects to the manufacture of such a system which must be adhered to so as to ensure correct operation of the 3 ring release, i.e. the rings are the correct size, strength and shape, the webbing loops that hold the rings is not to long, that the stitching which holds the webbing is in the correct place, that the rings are parallel to each other and that the rings are in contact with one another i.e. metal to metal, that the webbing locking loop is not to short or to long, etc if the construction of the 3 ring cutaway system which also counts for the large ring on the harness and the two metal rings + the webbing locking loop on the riser, and along with the construction of the cutaway cables/handle are in any way incorrect then the possibility of the 3 ring system not working is a very real concern. the above service bulletin is part of the rigging requirements in the manufacture of the 3 ring cutaway system. cheers Bentcam
good work though, or good effort in trying hard for safety ideas. Please let us know on here if you get any success ;-) or what Angel tells you! Thanks
Hi Yarek, where did you get the quoted text from? what source? Skydiving?
The only thing different on the new 3 rings is the red fabric. My previous or proto 2015 model has black normal webbing.
Contact the designer, Angel, directly at Ava by phoning him. Show him your pictures of the twisted ring.
I played with AVA 2015 3ring system today. I pulled with twists, without, totally twisted Risers independently, tried to simulate g force with extra tension - zero malfunction. However, once I finished playing with it I simulated with hands turn of smallest ring on 90 degrees. 3 ring system will not work in this configuration. I tried to pull hard - completely stucked. I will post links next. I can't really say that this can practically happen during handle pull.
"ince the introduction of the 3-ring system, variations in the design have raised safety concerns. For example, the move to mini rings and mini risers caused riser failures on some designs[5] until riser strength was improved. The failure of some manufacturers to include stiff riser inserts and other hard housing cable guides to allow the free movement of the cutaway cable when risers and webbing are twisted has caused difficulty in cutting away from malfunctions with riser twists or harness deformations.[6] The tolerance in the manufacture of the fabric risers and their connection to the rings is critical in maintaining the mechanical advantage of the 3-ring system and this has been compromised in some designs. Reversed risers placing the rings under the risers has prevented the rings moving freely and releasing under some cutaway scenarios."
hi,
don't know if maybe a similar malfunction like in this video (sec. 20) could have been a reason for one of these incidents ? (im not familiar with these systems) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h52bFl9qqmE
Hi Peterka,
Thanks for sharing that, very much another variable for sure!
Everyone must secure a colins lanyard to their base harnesses, Supair or Ava, it's a harmless addition to ensuring your extra safety.
The recent death here in the US with an Ava base harness was not due to the base system, though there are some lessons to be shared. I wasn't there so I can't verify anything absolutely, but I was informed by a man who did his own investigation with many of the people involved.
1. It seems he had taken a wrap, or somehow gotten his hands tied up in twists. I heard it described as if he was handcuffed which might explain why he never deployed.
2. Upon examination of the gear, it seems his base container bridle that hooks up to the carabiner, was not attached to the carabiner. This means that IF he pulled the cutaway base reserve handle, he would have went into free fall. He never did pull that handle.
3.His backup parachute was a beamer3. It was bag locked and was never going to come out. I think I remember seeing only 1 attachment for the reserve handle on those deployment bags which can sometimes make it more difficult to install the handle in a position that keeps the release mechanism, pins or nylons, from pulling. Always check that the pins pull before the bridle to the bag gets tight. You can't pull out the reserve unless the doors open.
I'm not sure, but I was under the impression with the handcuff description that he never tried pulling it, but if he did it wasn't coming out. He was essentially flying an SIV clinic without a reserve even though he had 2.
I think the lesson here is that these harnesses, while based on simple concepts, can be more complex, and need to be fully understood by the operator. The problem, it seems, is that you don't know what you dont know.
I think it's important this information is shared so we can learn from it.
"It's the white cord attached
To the carabiner and running down to the long yellow cable.
This means when the right hand carabiner deploys it will pull out the longer cable at the same time."
Note to Ava harness owners, attach the lanyard to the riser not inside the carabiner! And the same for Supair owners if you prefer safety of the ring release through the carabiner...
true, learning dynamic tricks in acro is better on an ava because you can weight shift more, or on a big glider. but for learning helico or for flying to a top 10 position in the World, absolute stability and comfort are best
the harness F1 was produced at the end of 2007. Bought new condition from one guy 2 years ago. I know this is old design but still should resist more then one year/season. Before every flight I always double checked the straps, but even by this I could not protect that. So this is not a pilot error but design problem, which could change into my accident.
I must admit that I switch now to SupAir Acro 3, and every strap seems to look ok, but flying SupAir is not just fun as flying Ava Acro. All pilots has his own preferences, Im talking here about feeling the glider because of the harness.
Oops, again I forgot to say something more:
The lumbar design on the Supair are much better because the angle on the Ava can cause minor wear on the bottom webbing from the angle causing pressure on the buckle. But having said that, the finish quality and sewing of the Ava is superior, so even with minor wear there isn't any issue after thousands of hours of acro abuse and weather damage.
Basically if we could emerge these two harnesses into one harness with the best features, we'd have a super harness!
The second reserve flap container in the Ava is the best design in the World, regarding safety. Unlike the Supair tubular design which supair seem to prefer in design. The Ava one is perfect for many reasons from keeping sand and moisture out to deployment issues if seat boards crack, the double nylon release etc.
I've heard there are protos in both brand harnesses with two second reserve containers under the seat board now. This is so you can fly with 3 parachute all together or you can take your base out for flying over water or in comps without changing harness ;-) pretty cool!
Hi Jarek
Man, that's terrible what happened to your lumbar strap on your F1. F1 is the original Xandi and Bernd design from like 2003 or 2004 or something, so it is an old design, or a first design. Looks to me like the belt was laced incorrectly slipped causing friction burn. That's not a quality problem, that's a design problem feature and possible pilot error, but mainly a design problem.
Even the current Ava, the lumbar straps slip. Although I've found on mine once it's secured real tight by pulling both end loops( loop fasteners on the new buckle) there's minimal movement even after a few consecutive training runs in Organya training twisted rhythmic which is super G-force stuff.
Regarding twisted infinity and twisted rhythmic, if you are on an Ava and fly with lumbar straps open/loose (reclined position) then you will need to secure your straps about 1/2 way closed(supine position). That way you can be closer to the risers when you are twisted backwards and have ample room to hold the top of your risers with both long or short arms! Very important! I wish somebody had told me that ages ago...
The Supair base has double lumbar support straps. This spreads the force more evenly to the back plate and divides the force on the straps that's why they're smaller than the Ava. I'd like the Ava to evolve to a double lumbar strap too.
Many pilots sew their lumbar straps on all Ava models from 2004 to 2015.
Yarich said: "I would go for SupAir regardless of pricing - however weight and quality is killing everything. I didn't like it at all."
If you were checking quality by eye I can tell you, that this is not the best way to check it.
I have uploaded some pictures were you can see that I killed my like new Ava Acro F1 in just one flight. Last year just after work I took my Nikita 4 and I made 1 tumble and 2 really strong dynamic sats. After last one I almost lost one side of attachment points.
Also**** one very important thing to check on your new Ava: is the length of your second reserve bridle that attaches to your normal parachute bag, check that your 'pins' (which are nylons) can be pulled out completely by your handle for parachute deployment. Check that that bridle or 'webbing' is long enough. Most of us are attaching it to a side loop on our parachute bags, but if you don't have a side mount loop on your normal parachute bag then you need to simulate this and check your deployment will be successful with your normal parachute. If you have any issues you can ask your dealer, or if you don't want to wait then going to a skydiving rigger or paragliding repair shop and simple lengthen that bridle/webbing to the length you desire for you nylons to release clearly from the parachute flap loops.
what is the team liischer edition?
The first one was by Andre at Flugsau, it has Flugsau embroidered on it, then there were a series of very similar if not exactly the same AVA ones once the contract with Flugsau ended then lest year there were modifications to the 3 ring design and the second parachute routing went under the base area and routed together on the right hand side(like the Supair harness) instead of going down each side to the second reserve. Also we got Angel to change the belt sewn strap that holds the leg straps in place under the seat board. The Risers are integrated and the spectra loops are replaceable. These are new features.
Myself and several other pilots had multiple harnesses that went through this change between October 2012 and now, so unless team liischer had something special like an extra design feature from the original then I think by throwing this team name around it's just confusing for everyone.
In the meantime I've had an email from someone regarding the death in USA, seems the guy did not attach his extractor and pulled the handle. Or something like that. It's very difficult because everyone is saying something and no-one is following through or actually collecting incident reports with all cases it seems.
All I can say as someone who has been trying his best to be involved and had multiple test pulls and 2 emergency pulls on variously designed and evolved Ava harnesses is that I'm happy and the product is super safe as long as you take into account you are merging BASE jumping/Skydiving with paragliding and you need to take responsibility for yourself! The equipment is pretty logical and you can die or hurt yourself on both the Ava and the Supair due to negligence. As there are videos and stories of people messing up on both harnesses for multiple silly and basic reasons! :-/ . Which is very concerning and yes I really agree, a manual would be helpful for first timers.
There's even more to write here about carabiners, extractors etc but it's all pretty simple and logical, as an acro pilot able to do maneuvers or at least interested in flying to a higher level, one should be able to take that 'pilot' ability and use it in understanding their new equipment.
If you bought from Flugsau, Andre is super friendly and helpful on the phone or by email, if you got a second hand AVA one, find an experienced pilot to help you like Ondrej(Larva) or myself(Michael) or many other pilots who can help. In the meantime I've asked a guy from USA to post what he wrote to me which clears up the USA accident and does not link Arthurs death with the same problem. As we do not know if Arthur's was his own error but we know the one in USA was pilot error.
I have heard that some guys have received the newest Ava harness and there's been some mistakes with the riser placement and they and to go back to be changed. What I can share with you all from my knowledge and experience of trying to collaborate with Ava is that they have had a recent change of staff in their factory and while Ani(owner and Angel(designer) are both very experienced and competent people, errors in fabrication and quality control or final check can happen in any factory in any industry. While I will never defend Ava for I have no reason to, I can say that their products boast the highest quality for laser cut fabric and fancy strong double sewing with a digital machine, their harnesses, outlast and are of higher quality than the Supair Acro3 and the Supair Base. But there are other benefits to the Supair that the Ava doesn't have such as back support in twisted tricks and long flying hours like in Organya and overall extra stability making heli connections easier on high wing loadings or smaller (17m2) acro wings.
Anyway, I hope we hear from this guy in USA, any incident reported here is community information to learn from.
And thanks to all those writing their opinions and sharing here, this is how we can all learn unless we made a facebook group or something.
;-)
Hey, so we had a similar accident in tirol(austria) a few weeks ago. The pilot got into a twisted spiral dive and pulled the base in about 150 m above the ground. Only the left carabiner (sup air were used) released and he crashed into high voltage cables (very lucky in this case), so all in all he was more or less unhurt!! Unlucky there is no go pro footage, so we can only guess what happened...Hope things will sort out...Safe landings!
Hi guys. Any news on issue with 2015 harness??? I deployed mine three times. but zero time from auto rotation or twists. I used O-shackles. I have red reinforcements on harness as well.
This is exactly what I said about AVA before - I feel like a test pilot. No certifications, no manuals, slider installed on top of parachute by AVA.
However now I really don't understand what could be a reason of malfunction due to wrong materials or design mistakes. Looks like 3 ring works perfectly to me when installed and used correctly.
However, I suspect one more reason for malfunction which wasn't mentioned: wrong installation of pull handle when one of one wires doesn't og through red ring for example...Actually many thing could go wrong as already everybody mentioned. But what I am wonder is if it was manufacturing issue or maybe the installation problem that I could be not aware of...
I would go for SupAir regardless of pricing - however weight and quality is killing everything. I didn't like it at all.
P.S. I met Artur once in Oludeniz. Sad to hear. RIP.
P.P.S. After few tests and one emergency deployment I've made conclusion not to use base below 200m of height. Now I'm thinking to raise this height at least 250 m.
I did not dbag it more than once due to fucking weather. But packing no problem as I repacked many times for practice.
I will today sit down and test release it many times just to see what and why it might get stuck. I guess I will find nothing. But i will try.
Looks like we have a new possible death, similar incident/accident in the USA!
Absolutely nothing confirmed at the moment but I will post ASAP here when I know more.
Until then, all new (2015) AVA base harness owners, do not pull the red handle unless high and over water with second reserve ready or not at all for the moment. Call your dealer and find out more.
Paal, yours is new, does it have the red fabric on the hang points where the 3 rings system is? You have deployed many times to learn packing haven't you? Allo good?
Mine is a 2015 prototype, along with my friends around me, some 8 or so harnesses, no issues at all and none with any models prior to 2015
Really Akira? Let's keep to the topic please :-( We can have a email fight in private if you like it so much...
Emotions and concearns are high. Opinions bold. But we are all getting somewhere with this and that thankfully is the reason for a forum.
Jaro, please let us know when you can if you hear more. I will contact other Polish pilots too in the meantime.
## (arrogance of opinionated pilots who speculate without manufacture knowledge *Akira*) ##
Coming from a person who called my email "silly" without being able to understand a word of it (because not knowing the language), I think you are in a very bad position to tell who speculates on what.
Good grief...
The Supair system only comes with the troll installed by adrenalin BASE for liability reasons to avoid these exact incidents.
Ava have been able to release their harness without canopy, thus leaving many options for people like us to make mistakes in our installation. People have made repack installation mistakes on the Supair too.
All I was saying is that there probably was no harness malfunction because there are 150+ varieties of this acro base harness by ava since 2012 and the carabiner problem and negligence and (arrogance of opinionated pilots who speculate without manufacture knowledge *Akira*) alone is causing a hindrance in communication and information.
Myself, and those around me involved in this product have had no issues, so if Angel messed up a design feature on the new model or building mistake only specifically on Arthurs(RIP) harness, then Ava will loose alot of sales and credibility.
Let's leave this thread to Jaro or anyone else who has direct contact with the Polish investigators. And let's hope it doesn't take too long to analyse what has happened, because actuallyr eally, it shouldn't take so long. Especially if there was on board gopro footage and I remeber he always used to fly with his gopro on, like most of us when flying acro.
good luck everyone!
JaroXS, sorry for your loss and thank you for investigating. I am only aware of this scary opening, according to the pilot he installed the second reserve wrong; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-_tKI6OvaU
Latest Comments
so they used the idea to do this one i guess
https://shop.finsterwalder-charly.de/shop/en/paragliding-equipment/hardw.... To you it work batter than this one ? https://shop.finsterwalder-charly.de/shop/en/paragliding-equipment/hardw...
I would mean lance, of the blue line on the picture you gave us
http://de.tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zd52yu&s=8
Mikes "because that can happen and in the acro community we have a solution with a better version that can be home made by comparison to the standard release systems sold on the market." Looking for this solution, I was on point to install the charly Snap shackle system but it cam to me there is an issue with the line lance so googling I found your discussion.
@kusgra and @all pilots . Here is the speed system some pilots have applied. However, you must test it vigorously! If you make the pin line the wrong length, it will get caught. Also, when doing twisted manoeuvres, especially like twisted rhythmic, it really sux having them. I just personally fly with my speed lines zipped into the side pockets and can attach them in flight if needed. Not ideal but you never really use speed bar on small wings. For freestyle wings and pilots, try this system. *note, it is a thin bungie elastic tied into a loop and the releaser line that goes to the pin must be a sewn clean loop too, the speed system hook is the standard tri hole design* http://de.tinypic.com/r/1zd52yu/8
Jaro, I ve checked other 3rings systems. They also has ability to stuck if turn small ring 90 degrees. As I mentioned before I don't see how it can practically happen in air. Also I checked supair harness with normal carabiner they provide - tried to simulate situation like in PDF file below. Seem to be OK - couldn't simulate the same . However, one person told me that supair had cutaway issue, but no any facts, just gossip.
I fly with 2015 AVA in Organya now, but majority is on supair version.
Had one cutoff recently in deep spiral with twists. It was harder to pull cutoff handle ug forceder g. New AVA cutoff handle has loop like supair what is better in my opinion
Wow ...
I don't know if it is related to this thread but I have the impression that there are many BASE harnesses to sell !!
Look at picture 4 from PDF and try to see ring (not normal carabiner). In my opinion it can stuck also when diameters of the rings are not right.
Yarich also said:
I played with AVA 2015 3ring system today. I pulled with twists, without, totally twisted Risers independently, tried to simulate g force with extra tension - zero malfunction. However, once I finished playing with it I simulated with hands turn of smallest ring on 90 degrees. 3 ring system will not work in this configuration. I tried to pull hard - completely stucked. I will post links next. I can't really say that this can practically happen during handle pull.
There is also some disinformation in the Ava manual and the Polish investigation team will by analysing this later.
Regards,
Jarek
So do i get this right: he didnt use the round carabiners recommended by AVA?
In my little world of mind it should be impossible for the 3 ring system to get stuck when a ring shaped carabiner is used, and the diameter difference between the rings is big enough. And it should be big enough when the rings can pass through even with twisted fabric inside the next bigger ring.
Or is this not correct?
In Polisch :
http://www.komisje.transport.gov.pl/media/5904/2015_0860_RW.pdf
Some conclusions in english :
- the cut away system has failed to work. The left side has deployed properly, the right side, connected to RSL, did not deploy;
- the failure of deployment seems to have been caused by the shape of the main carabiner, causing one of the rings to get locked in its position, failing to deploy;
- a number of carabiners from various manufacturers have been tested, with the failure of deployment being reproduced a number of times, which means that the fault cannot be linked to any single manufacturer;
- a number of acro base systems from other manufacturers have been tested and a similar behaviour (failure to deploy) has been witnessed, in a number of cases;
- the carabiner used by the pilot involved is shown on page 3 (middle picture, signed "Fot. 4");
- the locking of the mechanism occured with just the weight of the harness itself;
- the report contains a couple of pictures showing the position where the release mechanism has failed to work properly, due to the rings getting blocked by the main carabiner.
Can anyone post pictures and info about the elastic speed system that was mentioned to use instead of the cutaway speed system? Thanks!
Hello Yarich, From what I can personally see and understand from the photos that you have posted ... http://vk.com/photo4624945_372656839 ... here clearly shows that the red webbing that is holding the (2nd) middle ring is too thick around the ring and as such it is clearly stopping the (3rd) small ring from passing through it, this is of a concern and as such the manufacturer of this system needs to rectify this problem asap, I also believe that the use of the (1st) large D-shackle and it's thickness could also contribute to the problem and as such the manufacturer clearly needs to re work and immediately replace this with the correct parts and manufacturing technique.
To the Manufacture of the 3 ring cutaway system, guys if you Google "sb-apf010801-c" you will find a PDF service bulletin that relates to the correct service and maintenance of the 3 ring release system, and it also shows the correct manufacturer of the above 3 ring release. there are a number of important aspects to the manufacture of such a system which must be adhered to so as to ensure correct operation of the 3 ring release, i.e. the rings are the correct size, strength and shape, the webbing loops that hold the rings is not to long, that the stitching which holds the webbing is in the correct place, that the rings are parallel to each other and that the rings are in contact with one another i.e. metal to metal, that the webbing locking loop is not to short or to long, etc if the construction of the 3 ring cutaway system which also counts for the large ring on the harness and the two metal rings + the webbing locking loop on the riser, and along with the construction of the cutaway cables/handle are in any way incorrect then the possibility of the 3 ring system not working is a very real concern. the above service bulletin is part of the rigging requirements in the manufacture of the 3 ring cutaway system. cheers Bentcam
I did a funny test of the release system on my AVA a few days ago: https://instagram.com/p/4bPQXLyxc3/?taken-by=zerosixzero
good work though, or good effort in trying hard for safety ideas. Please let us know on here if you get any success ;-) or what Angel tells you! Thanks
Hi Yarek, where did you get the quoted text from? what source? Skydiving?
The only thing different on the new 3 rings is the red fabric. My previous or proto 2015 model has black normal webbing.
Contact the designer, Angel, directly at Ava by phoning him. Show him your pictures of the twisted ring.
Simple question. Is this possible with other 3 ring systems? Is it a real safety gap? Is somebody contacting Avasport for issue?
http://vk.com/photo4624945_372656839
http://vk.com/photo4624945_372656923
http://vk.com/photo4624945_372656778
I played with AVA 2015 3ring system today. I pulled with twists, without, totally twisted Risers independently, tried to simulate g force with extra tension - zero malfunction. However, once I finished playing with it I simulated with hands turn of smallest ring on 90 degrees. 3 ring system will not work in this configuration. I tried to pull hard - completely stucked. I will post links next. I can't really say that this can practically happen during handle pull.
"ince the introduction of the 3-ring system, variations in the design have raised safety concerns. For example, the move to mini rings and mini risers caused riser failures on some designs[5] until riser strength was improved. The failure of some manufacturers to include stiff riser inserts and other hard housing cable guides to allow the free movement of the cutaway cable when risers and webbing are twisted has caused difficulty in cutting away from malfunctions with riser twists or harness deformations.[6] The tolerance in the manufacture of the fabric risers and their connection to the rings is critical in maintaining the mechanical advantage of the 3-ring system and this has been compromised in some designs. Reversed risers placing the rings under the risers has prevented the rings moving freely and releasing under some cutaway scenarios."
Take care about 3-ring system
http://parachutistonline.com/safety_training/ask_a_rigger/three-ring-sys...
That's another one. Common.
http://ranchrookie.carranddash.com/2010/02/03/3-ring-release-system-rout...
Still waiting for some details...three incidents. only one from USA has details.
hi,
don't know if maybe a similar malfunction like in this video (sec. 20) could have been a reason for one of these incidents ? (im not familiar with these systems)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h52bFl9qqmE
Hi Peterka,
Thanks for sharing that, very much another variable for sure!
Everyone must secure a colins lanyard to their base harnesses, Supair or Ava, it's a harmless addition to ensuring your extra safety.
Hi everyone, just to think.... what about this kind of problem of not releasing one side?
http://blueskiesmag.com/2012/10/02/no-shit-there-i-was-time-to-clean-the...
got it!
hey Jarek, check out this damaged Supair base harness, a little worse than your old ava design? : http://de.tinypic.com/r/beh2lj/8
The recent death here in the US with an Ava base harness was not due to the base system, though there are some lessons to be shared. I wasn't there so I can't verify anything absolutely, but I was informed by a man who did his own investigation with many of the people involved.
1. It seems he had taken a wrap, or somehow gotten his hands tied up in twists. I heard it described as if he was handcuffed which might explain why he never deployed.
2. Upon examination of the gear, it seems his base container bridle that hooks up to the carabiner, was not attached to the carabiner. This means that IF he pulled the cutaway base reserve handle, he would have went into free fall. He never did pull that handle.
3.His backup parachute was a beamer3. It was bag locked and was never going to come out. I think I remember seeing only 1 attachment for the reserve handle on those deployment bags which can sometimes make it more difficult to install the handle in a position that keeps the release mechanism, pins or nylons, from pulling. Always check that the pins pull before the bridle to the bag gets tight. You can't pull out the reserve unless the doors open.
I'm not sure, but I was under the impression with the handcuff description that he never tried pulling it, but if he did it wasn't coming out. He was essentially flying an SIV clinic without a reserve even though he had 2.
I think the lesson here is that these harnesses, while based on simple concepts, can be more complex, and need to be fully understood by the operator. The problem, it seems, is that you don't know what you dont know.
I think it's important this information is shared so we can learn from it.
Here is a Colins Lanyard to a Supair Base. http://www.image-share.com/ijpg-2983-128.html
"It's the white cord attached
To the carabiner and running down to the long yellow cable.
This means when the right hand carabiner deploys it will pull out the longer cable at the same time."
Note to Ava harness owners, attach the lanyard to the riser not inside the carabiner! And the same for Supair owners if you prefer safety of the ring release through the carabiner...
true, learning dynamic tricks in acro is better on an ava because you can weight shift more, or on a big glider. but for learning helico or for flying to a top 10 position in the World, absolute stability and comfort are best
Hi,
the harness F1 was produced at the end of 2007. Bought new condition from one guy 2 years ago. I know this is old design but still should resist more then one year/season. Before every flight I always double checked the straps, but even by this I could not protect that. So this is not a pilot error but design problem, which could change into my accident.
I must admit that I switch now to SupAir Acro 3, and every strap seems to look ok, but flying SupAir is not just fun as flying Ava Acro. All pilots has his own preferences, Im talking here about feeling the glider because of the harness.
Regards,
Jarek
Oops, again I forgot to say something more:
The lumbar design on the Supair are much better because the angle on the Ava can cause minor wear on the bottom webbing from the angle causing pressure on the buckle. But having said that, the finish quality and sewing of the Ava is superior, so even with minor wear there isn't any issue after thousands of hours of acro abuse and weather damage.
Basically if we could emerge these two harnesses into one harness with the best features, we'd have a super harness!
The second reserve flap container in the Ava is the best design in the World, regarding safety. Unlike the Supair tubular design which supair seem to prefer in design. The Ava one is perfect for many reasons from keeping sand and moisture out to deployment issues if seat boards crack, the double nylon release etc.
I've heard there are protos in both brand harnesses with two second reserve containers under the seat board now. This is so you can fly with 3 parachute all together or you can take your base out for flying over water or in comps without changing harness ;-) pretty cool!
Hi Jarek
Man, that's terrible what happened to your lumbar strap on your F1. F1 is the original Xandi and Bernd design from like 2003 or 2004 or something, so it is an old design, or a first design. Looks to me like the belt was laced incorrectly slipped causing friction burn. That's not a quality problem, that's a design problem feature and possible pilot error, but mainly a design problem.
Even the current Ava, the lumbar straps slip. Although I've found on mine once it's secured real tight by pulling both end loops( loop fasteners on the new buckle) there's minimal movement even after a few consecutive training runs in Organya training twisted rhythmic which is super G-force stuff.
Regarding twisted infinity and twisted rhythmic, if you are on an Ava and fly with lumbar straps open/loose (reclined position) then you will need to secure your straps about 1/2 way closed(supine position). That way you can be closer to the risers when you are twisted backwards and have ample room to hold the top of your risers with both long or short arms! Very important! I wish somebody had told me that ages ago...
The Supair base has double lumbar support straps. This spreads the force more evenly to the back plate and divides the force on the straps that's why they're smaller than the Ava. I'd like the Ava to evolve to a double lumbar strap too.
Many pilots sew their lumbar straps on all Ava models from 2004 to 2015.
Yarich said: "I would go for SupAir regardless of pricing - however weight and quality is killing everything. I didn't like it at all."
If you were checking quality by eye I can tell you, that this is not the best way to check it.
I have uploaded some pictures were you can see that I killed my like new Ava Acro F1 in just one flight. Last year just after work I took my Nikita 4 and I made 1 tumble and 2 really strong dynamic sats. After last one I almost lost one side of attachment points.
http://www.image-share.com/ijpg-2983-120.html
http://www.image-share.com/ijpg-2983-121.html
Of course I know that making acro is serious case, and Im taking full responsibility what Im doing, but that scared me a lot.
Best regards,
Jarek
Also**** one very important thing to check on your new Ava: is the length of your second reserve bridle that attaches to your normal parachute bag, check that your 'pins' (which are nylons) can be pulled out completely by your handle for parachute deployment. Check that that bridle or 'webbing' is long enough. Most of us are attaching it to a side loop on our parachute bags, but if you don't have a side mount loop on your normal parachute bag then you need to simulate this and check your deployment will be successful with your normal parachute. If you have any issues you can ask your dealer, or if you don't want to wait then going to a skydiving rigger or paragliding repair shop and simple lengthen that bridle/webbing to the length you desire for you nylons to release clearly from the parachute flap loops.
what is the team liischer edition?
The first one was by Andre at Flugsau, it has Flugsau embroidered on it, then there were a series of very similar if not exactly the same AVA ones once the contract with Flugsau ended then lest year there were modifications to the 3 ring design and the second parachute routing went under the base area and routed together on the right hand side(like the Supair harness) instead of going down each side to the second reserve. Also we got Angel to change the belt sewn strap that holds the leg straps in place under the seat board. The Risers are integrated and the spectra loops are replaceable. These are new features.
Myself and several other pilots had multiple harnesses that went through this change between October 2012 and now, so unless team liischer had something special like an extra design feature from the original then I think by throwing this team name around it's just confusing for everyone.
In the meantime I've had an email from someone regarding the death in USA, seems the guy did not attach his extractor and pulled the handle. Or something like that. It's very difficult because everyone is saying something and no-one is following through or actually collecting incident reports with all cases it seems.
All I can say as someone who has been trying his best to be involved and had multiple test pulls and 2 emergency pulls on variously designed and evolved Ava harnesses is that I'm happy and the product is super safe as long as you take into account you are merging BASE jumping/Skydiving with paragliding and you need to take responsibility for yourself! The equipment is pretty logical and you can die or hurt yourself on both the Ava and the Supair due to negligence. As there are videos and stories of people messing up on both harnesses for multiple silly and basic reasons! :-/ . Which is very concerning and yes I really agree, a manual would be helpful for first timers.
There's even more to write here about carabiners, extractors etc but it's all pretty simple and logical, as an acro pilot able to do maneuvers or at least interested in flying to a higher level, one should be able to take that 'pilot' ability and use it in understanding their new equipment.
If you bought from Flugsau, Andre is super friendly and helpful on the phone or by email, if you got a second hand AVA one, find an experienced pilot to help you like Ondrej(Larva) or myself(Michael) or many other pilots who can help. In the meantime I've asked a guy from USA to post what he wrote to me which clears up the USA accident and does not link Arthurs death with the same problem. As we do not know if Arthur's was his own error but we know the one in USA was pilot error.
I have heard that some guys have received the newest Ava harness and there's been some mistakes with the riser placement and they and to go back to be changed. What I can share with you all from my knowledge and experience of trying to collaborate with Ava is that they have had a recent change of staff in their factory and while Ani(owner and Angel(designer) are both very experienced and competent people, errors in fabrication and quality control or final check can happen in any factory in any industry. While I will never defend Ava for I have no reason to, I can say that their products boast the highest quality for laser cut fabric and fancy strong double sewing with a digital machine, their harnesses, outlast and are of higher quality than the Supair Acro3 and the Supair Base. But there are other benefits to the Supair that the Ava doesn't have such as back support in twisted tricks and long flying hours like in Organya and overall extra stability making heli connections easier on high wing loadings or smaller (17m2) acro wings.
Anyway, I hope we hear from this guy in USA, any incident reported here is community information to learn from.
And thanks to all those writing their opinions and sharing here, this is how we can all learn unless we made a facebook group or something.
;-)
Sorry, not to confuse you guys: by "Team Liischer Edition" I meant the old/first version of the AVA Base harness....
Hi Doubdle,
Which version of the harness was used? Team Liischer Edition? Cheers!
Hey, so we had a similar accident in tirol(austria) a few weeks ago. The pilot got into a twisted spiral dive and pulled the base in about 150 m above the ground. Only the left carabiner (sup air were used) released and he crashed into high voltage cables (very lucky in this case), so all in all he was more or less unhurt!! Unlucky there is no go pro footage, so we can only guess what happened...Hope things will sort out...Safe landings!
I have same design of 3 ring http://justacro.com/market/harness/8607
Hi guys. Any news on issue with 2015 harness??? I deployed mine three times. but zero time from auto rotation or twists. I used O-shackles. I have red reinforcements on harness as well.
This is exactly what I said about AVA before - I feel like a test pilot. No certifications, no manuals, slider installed on top of parachute by AVA.
However now I really don't understand what could be a reason of malfunction due to wrong materials or design mistakes. Looks like 3 ring works perfectly to me when installed and used correctly.
However, I suspect one more reason for malfunction which wasn't mentioned: wrong installation of pull handle when one of one wires doesn't og through red ring for example...Actually many thing could go wrong as already everybody mentioned. But what I am wonder is if it was manufacturing issue or maybe the installation problem that I could be not aware of...
I would go for SupAir regardless of pricing - however weight and quality is killing everything. I didn't like it at all.
P.S. I met Artur once in Oludeniz. Sad to hear. RIP.
P.P.S. After few tests and one emergency deployment I've made conclusion not to use base below 200m of height. Now I'm thinking to raise this height at least 250 m.
Red reinforcement fabric yes.
I did not dbag it more than once due to fucking weather. But packing no problem as I repacked many times for practice.
I will today sit down and test release it many times just to see what and why it might get stuck. I guess I will find nothing. But i will try.
Looks like we have a new possible death, similar incident/accident in the USA!
Absolutely nothing confirmed at the moment but I will post ASAP here when I know more.
Until then, all new (2015) AVA base harness owners, do not pull the red handle unless high and over water with second reserve ready or not at all for the moment. Call your dealer and find out more.
Paal, yours is new, does it have the red fabric on the hang points where the 3 rings system is? You have deployed many times to learn packing haven't you? Allo good?
Mine is a 2015 prototype, along with my friends around me, some 8 or so harnesses, no issues at all and none with any models prior to 2015
Guys for more info according to investigation you need to contact directly Team Acrocollective.
www.acrocollective.pl
https://www.facebook.com/Acrocollective?fref=ts
They will have info much faster then me.
Regards,
Jarek
I wrote back to you 1 time? In reply to your 2 emails!
Please stop doing this, thank you ;-)
Then please stop sending me loads of insults by email.
I have been polite with you, why do you have to humiliate people to push your arguments ?
Really Akira? Let's keep to the topic please :-( We can have a email fight in private if you like it so much...
Emotions and concearns are high. Opinions bold. But we are all getting somewhere with this and that thankfully is the reason for a forum.
Jaro, please let us know when you can if you hear more. I will contact other Polish pilots too in the meantime.
## (arrogance of opinionated pilots who speculate without manufacture knowledge *Akira*) ##
Coming from a person who called my email "silly" without being able to understand a word of it (because not knowing the language), I think you are in a very bad position to tell who speculates on what.
Good grief...
The Supair system only comes with the troll installed by adrenalin BASE for liability reasons to avoid these exact incidents.
Ava have been able to release their harness without canopy, thus leaving many options for people like us to make mistakes in our installation. People have made repack installation mistakes on the Supair too.
All I was saying is that there probably was no harness malfunction because there are 150+ varieties of this acro base harness by ava since 2012 and the carabiner problem and negligence and (arrogance of opinionated pilots who speculate without manufacture knowledge *Akira*) alone is causing a hindrance in communication and information.
Myself, and those around me involved in this product have had no issues, so if Angel messed up a design feature on the new model or building mistake only specifically on Arthurs(RIP) harness, then Ava will loose alot of sales and credibility.
Let's leave this thread to Jaro or anyone else who has direct contact with the Polish investigators. And let's hope it doesn't take too long to analyse what has happened, because actuallyr eally, it shouldn't take so long. Especially if there was on board gopro footage and I remeber he always used to fly with his gopro on, like most of us when flying acro.
good luck everyone!
JaroXS, sorry for your loss and thank you for investigating. I am only aware of this scary opening, according to the pilot he installed the second reserve wrong; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-_tKI6OvaU